Okay guys I was listening to Loomis, Ziras and Andy James this morning and everytime I listen to these guys I'm blown away by their technique which leads me to always ponder the question 'Is the Evolution of the Shred/Neoclassical guitarist coming close to the boundaries of what is technically and physically possible?'. Logic tells me that it will keep evolving and players will keep improving technique-wise infinitely but the human hands do have their limitations. How much faster can these guys actually get? There has to be a point when it becomes physically impossible. Maybe the exponents of this style will develop in other ways? The best analogy that I can give is that Paganini who died in 1840 I think is generally considered to be the greatest violinist ever. His 24 Caprices (1802-1817) imo have technically never been bettered in what will soon be 200 years so are we gonna be looking at the same type of scenario regarding todays guitarists soon?

In thinking about this question I wonder whether the guys you mentioned are any better technically than Paul Gilbert was in the 80's. They may do more tapping and sweeping than Gilbert so there maybe some differences of emphasis on certain techniques, but I'm not sure if they are any better.

However I haven't heard lots of stuff by those guys so maybe I'm missing out on some stuff that is head and shoulders above Gilbert's 1980s technical level. I also think that compared to Gilbert Vinnie Moore and Macalpine for example the guys you talk about maybe try to cram in more arpeggios per bar. Not saying they are not musical but they are trying to take it to the next level of difficulty. Whether this sacrifices feel or some degree of musicality is a matter of opinion.

Any way. I suppose what I am trying to say is that I think that in general the maximum technical level has pretty much been reached barring some minor tweeking or small development of particular techniques. I would be glad to be proved wrong in the end though.

Okay when I said about listening to Loomis etc this morning that was just an example. I am really talking about guitarists from the genre in general. However I do agree with you HK in that I also prefer PG, Vinnie Moore etc to the new crop of shredders out there.

Sorry ID - I probabley slightly got the wrong end of the stick! :rolleyes:

WHat I've noticed is that, although these new Amazing shredders i.e. Loomis and george bellas, TECHNICALLY, they are ridiculously skilled.

BUT...

when you listen to someone like Jason Becker... he knows how to combine Shred/neoclassical with something we can listen to and enjoy THE MUSIC. for example, listen to Altitudes, or Y.R.O or B.R.O and you can hear the emotion. Especially altitudes. My point is, I'm not so sure that these new shredder guys will get to the point of MUSICAL ability as Gilbert, Vinman, Becker, malmsteen, Tmac, etc. Loomis possibly, but some of these other guys, I just can't listen to because it's just them shredding for 4 minutes straight, it's like, where's the Intro, Chrous, and Interlude? Idk I may be wrong.

but there's a new Age of shredders rising up, kids like me that are 16.. maybe one of us will become a Becker or Gilbert..

lol sorry that was kinda a rant. Great Topic IbanezDaemon!

No worries HK, from the way my post was worded you're right to think that I was talking about the new crop of shredders.

Interesting points so far guys. I'd like to think that not only the players but the genre as a whole will keep evolving. I for one live in hope that there is gonna be a new groundbreaking player just around the corner ala Yngwie or EVH who's technique and style would throw away the rulebook and have you reaching for your guitar to get practising again. ;)

I think the technical peak for electric guitar/instrumental rock, was the late 80s. It continue to develop and change but the players nowadays are just as good technically as they wee in the late 80s.

I think what's happened is that technique seems to now be more important than actual musical skill among most shredders. and also, there are a few metal bands around like killswitch engage (who suck imo) so i actually think the standards these days have gone downhill. I still think though that eventually another awesome guitarist will pop up and break some sort of boundary in the same way EVH and other great guitarists have.

I've rather gotten bored of the mindless shred that today's guitarists seem to embrace. Thus I've adapted to guitarists like Guthrie Govan. He has a grip on the direction I think we should be heading.

NOTE: This turned out a lot longer (and time consuming...) than expected, sorry.

I don't personally think that the shred guitar 'genre' is going to go anywhere without a major change somewhere in the fundamentals of the music itself. As of now, neoclassical metal is not musically developing, the shredding behind it is. As modern shredders continue to develop more technically gifted and awe-inducing techniques, the music itself is not moving with it, and the techniques don't bring in new applications. This is where speed for the sake of speed comes from.

As neoclassical metal stays in one place, entirely new playing techniques (which come from the need to play something that existing techniques do not cover) do not have a place, or need, to develop. EVH heard the Heartbreaker solo and thought of a different way to play it. Frank Gambale needed a more efficient way to play arpeggios and other things ascending/descending strings more than they moved on the fretboard, and started sweeping. Jimi Hendrix wanted a more electric and extreme sound, and learned how to overdrive his amp. You could go back even further and say Les Paul wanted a guitar that was electrically amplified, so he invented one himself. Techniques develop out of necessity, especially when something is new and undeveloped. New Age shredders, in the pursuit of speed, are developing old techniques to the breaking point, after which advancement will need to be done with entirely different musical background, something that neoclassical metal does not have.

A simple way to force the development of different techniques is to change the tuning. For example, try New Standard Tuning (CGDAEG). Since the intervals are different (bottom five strings are tuned in fifths, the high G is a minor third above the E), you will have to develop different ways of playing just to cover what you already know how to play. But look closer. Tuning in fifths means vertical ascension from string to string is a larger gap. Chords and scales need to be played differently, but once this is covered, more routes can be taken because the gap takes you farther from your root note. Passages that were impossible to play on a normally tuned guitar because of large gaps are now possible. When technique on NST (or any other different tuning method) reaches it's own peak, the techniques will be somewhere completely different and unimaginable, compared to the standard stuff used today. This is an advancement.

Also look at the chapman stick, or any other touch style guitar. If you're not familiar with them, the basic premise is to play everything legato style with two hands. Think two handed tapping. Seeing as you can play two lines at once, imagine being able to play two shred sequences, but at the same time, having complete control over both of them. Warr Guitars are even designed to also be played traditionally with a pick or fingerstyle. This could mean double the legato madness (Allan Holdsworth would be proud), or a much larger range of expression, coupled with different tuning possibilities, especially since the bass and lead strings can both be tuned completely differently. There's a lot of room for advancement here, seeing as the instruments remain fairly uncommon.

The last area that has room for change is the musical form itself. An interesting path to take would be ACTUAL neoclassical metal music, or maybe neoromantic. That's still dwelling in the boundaries of western music, as well. There's a lot to be found in middle eastern and (especially, in my opinion) Indian classical music, where form is completely different than it is here. And I don't just mean using foreign scales, either. Wikipedia has a good article on Hindustani classical music. Or go down even further. I'm interested in microtonal music (as in, notes between the basic 12 notes present in western music). This is normal for eastern music, and for pre-equal temperament music (remember that thread?) This was the basic reasoning that made me start my own fretless project (that I seem to mention too much). While it's not entirely new, techniques are rather underdeveloped (especially with shredding). There's a lot of avenues of unexplored expression out there, they're just not used in neoclassical metal because there is no need for them. And without a need for new things, new things don't happen.

tl;dr: Shred was cool and interesting in the 80s, when it was developing, but modern shred isn't. Yet.

Lektro keeps amazing me every time I read his posts!

Lektro, the fretless project sounds very interesting mate. Can you elaborate a bit on it? Do you intend to build your own guitar or have you got your eye on one that's on the market already? I'd love to hear more about as I think a fretless guitar would have a unique sound. Thanx. :)

I'm taking a strat copy, ripping the frets out, and either using a wood filler/epoxy type solution to fill the slots in, or putting glass on top of the fingerboard (after an inhumane amount of sanding, of course), haven't decided on that last part yet. The wood filler would be the easiest and probably safest bet, since a glass neck on my only fretless guitar could go wrong in so many ways, but the glass neck would have a much different sound as well as a (hopefully) smoother feel. It'll definitely be different, that's for sure. Unfretted.com is a great resource for this, with tutorials and everything.

Some of the retail fretless guitars look absolutely great, such as the exorbitantly expensive Vigier Surfreter series, but the Godin Glissentar is nice too. I'd rather customize an existing guitar (or build one), though. It'll be interesting, I already abuse slides and microtones, why not have an entire instrument whose biggest strength is that? This is all assuming I don't throw it out the window if it's too difficult.

LOL Srevolution lol

I still think there is a way to go compositionally with guitar music based on classical, or more accurately orchestral music. Many shredders still concentrate on the baroque and classical style where as there is a lot of scope to try to emulate the compostional style of the Romantic and modern eras. Maybe this type of music is more difficult to translate into the a rock based format because the tempo is more elastic and nebulous and is more harmonically complex. This is definately a challenge. Becker and Friedman showed that in some respects it can be pulled off. I still think it could be expanded though.

Yeah I agree with that big time. Move outside the Baroque era which will broaden your horizons for sure.

Good luck with the guitar Lektro, it sounds like a great idea and in theory should work. I'm still trying to get my project guitar off the ground but I see too many on ebay that I like ( I just put a bid in on a JEM BSB this evening) and I'm a wizard at procrastinating. Keep us updated of your progress dude. ;)

I didn't spend a lot of time with this in the original "post" I made, but I do also agree that expanding through Romantic/modern classical music would do a world of good for neoclassical metal. Even though , as Hurricane Kid said, it's more complicated to pull off in a rock format, it could be done, especially with larger ensembles of players playing together. It would have to break rock conventions, though, in order to get that dynamic element and the complex harmony and modulation to...work. But having more instrumentalists would help with layering and harmony that would take the compositional ability to the next level (see Cacophony). Compositional advancement is easier to achieve, especially in a romantic style, with multiple people (Yngwie's ego disagrees, of course). I'd expect a jazz fusion ensemble to do something like this before the average neo-shredder, though.

EDIT: Thanks, ID. I defretted the neck, and I have the wood filler ready (still haven't really decided on the glass, procrastination is too fun). The local music store has a big box with a bunch of pickups and bridges in it, might do some replacement there as well, after the neck. Not sure how it'll turn out, but I know for sure I'll spend more money and time on it than I was originally planning :)

Have you played a fretless guitar before mate? I've never even seen one, they are a rare breed indeed.

Played a fretless guitar one time, and absolutely loved what it could do (not sure how out of tune I was playing, though). I have more experience with fretless basses, electric and upright, mostly because they're less rare, but a fretless guitar just feels like a natural extension from microtonal worship and slide playing. It's also a much less expensive project to have than a midi guitar :P

Interesting. The only microtonal thing I'm aware of is where you can hit harmonics at different places in each individual fret for divebombing etc lol but I'm very interested in new concepts and project guitars. I'd love to try a fretless guitar, it'd do wonders for improving your eartraining I reckon.

I agree. This is kinda what I'm trying to do, to see if it's possible. Not only with Romantic stuff, but also 20th century composers, like Bartok and Stravinsky.

To a certain extent, it has been done, but not on the level that I'd like to see it happen.

I know where you're coming from dude. Do you think guitarists from this genre should experiment more with atonal stuff, outside the box if you like. Maybe move away from the standard sweeping through min, maj, dim and dim7 arps?

Yeah, and it doesn't have to be full on atonal stuff, but just a little dissonance can really add something extra to the music. That reminds me, one of the things that drew me to Jason Becker was the end of Mabel's Fatal Fabel. I think that's a great example of what can be done.

I think you could go far by taking the basic Death and the Maiden idea and composing new music with the line up, quartet ensemble style (I'm sure this isn't a new idea to you). One guitar player can only play so much, treating the other instruments like equals instead of the backing track is a natural evolution for neoclassical metal. By playing as an ensemble instead of as a band, the possibility for innovation skyrockets, something that makes classical (and jazz bands, as well) an interesting listen for me. I'll be watching what happens, especially when you have a full lineup.

I think you're right Lektro. The problem with a distorted guitar is that once you get past playing perfect fifths, interval - wise things start getting muddy. Obviously the solution is to have more guitarists to play the various intervals, play with a clean tone, or use other instruments to give you the scope to fill in those intervals. I think within the standard rock group context two guitars and a keyboard player plus rhythm section could achieve a lot if used with imagination. However it could just end up sounding like prog rock if you are not careful. So a different ensemble structure might be the way to go.

The other thing to consider is does it actually sound any bloody good. Sometimes I think guitarists try to translate music from other instruments and genres onto metal guitar and it just doesn't work. There is no point in doing something just for the sake of it. If it sounds worse than the original context or doen't add a new quality or interesting angle, I don't think it's worth it.

Yeah using an overly distorted signal is going to hamper your chord progressions and the use of fifths in neoclassical music I know is scorned by some classical musicians. I'm trying to work on my tone and achieve a sound with the bare minimum of distortion but enough to let notes sustain enough. I messing about with it add the mo with some reverb, delay and chorus. I want to be able to play those 4, 5 and 6 stings chords without them sounding like mush. ;)

Dude, you're reading my mind :D That's pretty much what I'm trying to accomplish, including composing my own stuff. Right now I see it as experimenting, seeing what works, what doesn't, etc.. but yeah, I've always been more attracted to ensemble playing, it can add so much to the music when done right.